Lake Of Fire,Second Death

Hello all,

I was reading this (Please check URL below)
http://www.gtft.org/Library/loudy/GodsEonianPurpose/GodsEonianPurpo...
(search google for God's eonian purpose by Adlai Loudy.)

and it is written here in Chapter 19 on Death and Hell that,

""The lake of fire is eonian torment for the Wild Beast, the False Prophet, and Satan, and the second death for irreverent men--those not found written in the book of life.""
AND
""These Scriptures tell us that, after the great and small have been judged before the Great White Throne and paid their due, those not found written in the scroll of life were cast into the lake of fire--which is the second death. Now there is no need for us to incriminate ourselves by insisting on the doctrine of "eternal torment" for wicked mankind here, when the Scriptures say, unequivocally, that they are returned to death. Neither is it wisdom or reverence for us to seek an explanation of the lake of fire in the commentaries and philosophies of men, when God Himself has given us His own explanation. It is the second death, therefore, it can be nothing more than a repetition of the first, and as the first death was simply a complete dissolution and return to the state of unconsciousness, so will be the second death. It is never said to be punishment for mankind in the Scriptures. Such teaching has grown out of a misguided zeal of teachers in behalf of the unscriptural, heathenish idea of the "immortality of the soul," connected with a perverted doctrine of eternal punishment in a hell of which the word of God in its purity knows nothing. God says it is the second death. This should be final for all truth lovers.""

MY QUESTIONS

This concept of second death and the lake of fire is rather confusing to me.
*How is it that the lake of fire is eonian torment for satan,wild beast etc. but just the second death for irreverent humanity.
*If the LOF is not eonian punishment for unbelievers,then when/how/where do these dead unbelievers get punished?
*What is this scroll of life? It cant be the names of the ones who believed Jesus, as
only unbelievers are resurrected at this Great White Throne Judgement.So,what is its purpose of this scroll of life?
*And Could you also elaborate on the significance of death and resurrection of Jesus as far as the Unbeliever(who has been in unbelief till the last,or lets say the last unbeliever prior to consummation) is concerned?
Since, He had to pay the dues for His sins himself at the Great White Throne Judgement (Or did he?).Is it that God was conciliated to Him, but He was not conciliated to God.
i hope you get what iam trying to ask here.
I would be grateful if you could give me your thoughts/teachings on these, when you get the time.

Bless You all,
Josh

Tags: death, fire, lake, of, second

▶ Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Craig Nolin on December 14, 2009 at 8:25pm: When a person realizes that Satan is not a being, but a spirit; and although spirits are described with anthropomorphic features, they are not living beings. Therefore knowing what Satan is, solves the question of why Satan can be thrown into the Lake of Fire and never come out of it; Satan means "Adversary" and once God is all in all, there is no adversary any longer, only God, and God is family.

Similarity does not mean same. Whatever modern Christianity teaches concerning Revelation may indeed resemble Zoroastrianism because dull minds have interpreted it as such and taught it erroneously for centuries; but what it meant when it was written has no relation to it. This similarity also includes the Roman myth of the morning star demi-god, Lucifer and his angelic rebellion from the god Helios-Apollos-Sol, it never happened in early Christian thought and was a 4th Century addition.

There is no relation to the Zoroastrian or the Roman Religion in the writings of the Disciples and Early Church Father's prior to the 4th Century when the war of Nice was waged and Rome dictated by the end of a sword what Christianity would believe.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by JOSHUA on December 15, 2009 at 10:59am: Thank you all, for your thoughts and teachings.I have been doing a lot of reading and studying to convince myself totally that everyone is going to be saved ultimately.I have been told that the Bible can judge people and their intentions as they read it.So,if you read from a perspective of fear, then most verses will SEEM to you that they teach fearful and horrible things like eternal torment and that God is bloodthirsty.Hence the Bible shows that you are reading it in fear.I think that was where i went wrong too.I was always anxious about what will happen to people around me who were unbelievers, including friends and family members.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Norm Fowler on December 20, 2009 at 1:29pm: The following that i have to offer is what has been allowed for me to understand and i am in a continuos state of learning as they are revealed to me.

Here is how i understand the lake of fire:
Rev. 20:14 and 15 tells us:death and hell were cast into the lake of fire, and whosoever were not in the book of life is cast into it also. The last ststement in vs 14 is what catches my attention: This is the second death,
Then we are told in 1 Corth:15-25 that Christ will reign until He puts all enemies under His feet, the last enemy is death. When He has accomplished the defeat of ALL enemies He subjects Himself to the Father and God is ALL in ALL.

The lake of fire cannot be "eternal" if it is in fact the second death and Christ has abolished death.

This to me is how isaiahs' prophecy "when thy judgements are in the earth, the world will learn righteousness" comes to fulfillment.

Paul also tells us in corithians (can't remeber the exact vs) that all will learn and be purged in our own order.

i believe that it is all in Gods' timing and to His will.

i hope this makes some sense to someone

Peace and Gods' Love; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Frank Hubeny on December 21, 2009 at 10:18am: I take it as an assumption, that I think is nearly obvious: eternal punishment in hell-fire does not exist.

What I have read about near-death experiences does not suggest such punishments exist although negative experiences are reported. What these near-death experiences do validate is that bodily death is not the end.

When you hear people damn others to hell it usually means they feel defeated. Hell gets hotter and longer as the defeat increases. If the author of Revelation witnessed the Jewish War in 70 CE that destroyed the temple, and sided with the Zealots who died there, that defeat must have been severe.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Craig Nolin on December 22, 2009 at 2:01pm: If you watched the movie Avatar, when the Home Tree was destroyed and imagine what a prophet of the Nav'i would have said. :D

Frank Hubeny said:
I take it as an assumption, that I think is nearly obvious: eternal punishment in hell-fire does not exist.

What I have read about near-death experiences does not suggest such punishments exist although negative experiences are reported. What these near-death experiences do validate is that bodily death is not the end.

When you hear people damn others to hell it usually means they feel defeated. Hell gets hotter and longer as the defeat increases. If the author of Revelation witnessed the Jewish War in 70 CE that destroyed the temple, and sided with the Zealots who died there, that defeat must have been severe.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Frank Hubeny on December 22, 2009 at 7:40pm: I have only seen previews for Avatar so far, but I will keep the Home Tree and the Nav'i in mind when I do.

Craig Nolin said:
If you watched the movie Avatar, when the Home Tree was destroyed and imagine what a prophet of the Nav'i would have said. :D; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Craig Nolin on December 24, 2009 at 2:00am: you have to see it!; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Frank Hubeny on December 31, 2009 at 10:42am: I finally saw Avatar last night. I can still see the shocked face of the princess when she saw the Home Tree collapse after the bombing. It's one of the best movies I have ever seen.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Alveno Kondyles on January 11, 2010 at 11:03am: I hope that I’m not violating any rules, and I hope that I’m not offending anyone. But, I believe that Larren Smoot already opened the can of worms, and also opened herself to criticism, when she aggressively went after Frank Hubeny about Zoroastrianism.

I might be wrong but I don’t remember Frank saying that he believed, nor did he accept the Zoroastrianism philosophy. He instead came across as a person with legitimate questions, about parallels that existed between revelations, and Zoroastrianism. To me he came across as a seeker, who was just trying to connect the dots.

No one receives any truth unless “He” who is the truth, reveals it.

Didn’t Paul say, that there was nothing, that was good in the flesh?

Those who think that they have superior wisdom should also walk with superior humility. Everything we do, is going to be mixed with the flesh. We see revelation thru a darkened glass, barely able to see the other side. Before we try removing the sliver from out brothers eye, first remove the huge piece of lumber from your own eye.

I don’t believe that there are two people that have lived, that were exactly alike. No two people have received the exact same revelations from the Lord, in totality. There will not be same understanding, even if he did reveal the same truth to all, because everything has to also go thru the prism of each unique mind.

In the movie “Good Will Hunting”, the character named “Will” says (paraphrased) to the good doctor who is trying to treat him, that “Yes”, he (The doctor) had read, or had in possession a lot of books, but he read the wrong ones, and he (Will), by implication read the right ones. By implication, Larren believes she reads the right books! Or listens to the right people. Aka, Stephen Jones!

Larren is high on Stephen Jones, in particular his writings on Revelation, and its relationship to the history of the Church. Jones teaches, that book of revelations is a synopsis of past Church history. Jones believes that much of revelations has already taken place. Even though he (Jones) has written some good stuff, I believe that Jones is completely wrong about revelations. I don’t believe as Jones, and the Roman Catholic Church, that church people will usher in the new age (children of God).

The Lord is not waiting for us to clean things up before he arrives! He will arrive based on a pre determined schedule. The world will be in a pre determined condition.

I believe that it is perfectly legitimate for any one to read what ever he is led to read. There is nothing wrong for reading a book on witchcraft (for instance), if the context is to understand witchcraft and its place in Gods plan. There is nothing wrong, or extra superior about me reading the book , “The Two Babylon’s” almost 20 years ago. I read it because I wanted to understand the relationship between Mystery Babylon, and the Roman Catholic Church. Since then, I have read it at least two more times. It was good that I was a avid reader of Chick publications some years ago. Even though I now know that he was wrong about a fiery Hell. I use to give out those bible tracts to a lot of people!

God can reach people through the lie of a fiery hell. He can reach people thru dung. Wasn‘t Paul thankful that Jesus was being preached, even though they were slandering Paul?

When I became born again, the fiery hell was awaiting me, it went hand and hand with my guilt, and forgiveness, and rebirth. Even though it (fiery hell) was a lie! Paradox?

I am very distrustful when people say that any particular person is way greater than someone else. I’ve already talked about Stephan Jones’s weakness on revelations. He also promotes one of his friends, or himself as a prophet of God. The test of a Prophet is to be 100% right. Enough said about Jones. There is also the woman who wrote (in another discussion) that ”God spoke to her”. I’m speaking to that person, please show a little humility! Those type of statements are some of the most deluded, and arrogant that person can make.

It’s all paradoxical! But God leads all of us in the way he wills. Some into temporal destruction, and some into temporary salvation (this life). Like those who he sends strong delusion, in order to destroy (temporal, flesh) them. And those he wills temporal salvation from addictions of the flesh.

Therefore let us walk in humility, with the attitude of instruction. Realizing that we know very little for sure. Let us also not judge the Lord in why one person might, or might be as enlighten as you. The spirit gives gifts as he chooses. For there is nothing in you for you to take credit for, or boast about. God is the only source of what is true and good.

Al; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Frank Hubeny on January 11, 2010 at 5:52pm: Alveno Kondyles said:
I might be wrong but I don’t remember Frank saying that he believed, nor did he accept the Zoroastrianism philosophy. He instead came across as a person with legitimate questions, about parallels that existed between revelations, and Zoroastrianism. To me he came across as a seeker, who was just trying to connect the dots.

Hi Al,

I can confirm that I know very little about Zoroastrianism. Too little to be one.

I couldn't find the Steven Jones book that Larren mentioned, but I did look at Jonathan Kirsch, "A History of the End of the World" (which I couldn't finish) and Albert Schweitzer, "The Kingdom of God and Primitive Christianity" (which I could finish). Both of them mentioned Zoroastrianism to my great delight, but I think I got the time frame wrong based on Schweitzer's book. The influence was there centuries ago so the author of Revelation likely did not think he was taking anything from the Zoroastrians directly. One thing Schweitzer mentions is that the idea of angels as mediators between God and humans came from Zoroastrianism where God is too transcendent to talk to us directly. I found that interesting. It makes me wonder why we need angels, but I guess they are nice to have around.

Anyway, I have enjoyed these discussions and even read Revelation itself from beginning to end for the first time thanks to Joshua's post. And if it weren't for the comments from you, Larren and the others, my interest would likely have vanished.

Frank; ▶ Reply to This