Lake Of Fire,Second Death

Hello all,

I was reading this (Please check URL below)
http://www.gtft.org/Library/loudy/GodsEonianPurpose/GodsEonianPurpo...
(search google for God's eonian purpose by Adlai Loudy.)

and it is written here in Chapter 19 on Death and Hell that,

""The lake of fire is eonian torment for the Wild Beast, the False Prophet, and Satan, and the second death for irreverent men--those not found written in the book of life.""
AND
""These Scriptures tell us that, after the great and small have been judged before the Great White Throne and paid their due, those not found written in the scroll of life were cast into the lake of fire--which is the second death. Now there is no need for us to incriminate ourselves by insisting on the doctrine of "eternal torment" for wicked mankind here, when the Scriptures say, unequivocally, that they are returned to death. Neither is it wisdom or reverence for us to seek an explanation of the lake of fire in the commentaries and philosophies of men, when God Himself has given us His own explanation. It is the second death, therefore, it can be nothing more than a repetition of the first, and as the first death was simply a complete dissolution and return to the state of unconsciousness, so will be the second death. It is never said to be punishment for mankind in the Scriptures. Such teaching has grown out of a misguided zeal of teachers in behalf of the unscriptural, heathenish idea of the "immortality of the soul," connected with a perverted doctrine of eternal punishment in a hell of which the word of God in its purity knows nothing. God says it is the second death. This should be final for all truth lovers.""

MY QUESTIONS

This concept of second death and the lake of fire is rather confusing to me.
*How is it that the lake of fire is eonian torment for satan,wild beast etc. but just the second death for irreverent humanity.
*If the LOF is not eonian punishment for unbelievers,then when/how/where do these dead unbelievers get punished?
*What is this scroll of life? It cant be the names of the ones who believed Jesus, as
only unbelievers are resurrected at this Great White Throne Judgement.So,what is its purpose of this scroll of life?
*And Could you also elaborate on the significance of death and resurrection of Jesus as far as the Unbeliever(who has been in unbelief till the last,or lets say the last unbeliever prior to consummation) is concerned?
Since, He had to pay the dues for His sins himself at the Great White Throne Judgement (Or did he?).Is it that God was conciliated to Him, but He was not conciliated to God.
i hope you get what iam trying to ask here.
I would be grateful if you could give me your thoughts/teachings on these, when you get the time.

Bless You all,
Josh

Tags: death, fire, lake, of, second

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Frank Hubeny on December 7, 2009 at 1:51pm: Hi Josh,

I just happened to be browsing the posts. I am no expert on any of this, but I wanted to add something about the lake of fire. Others may correct me.

I looked at Zoroastrian religion some time ago and recall they believed in a lake of fire in which the evil deceased human beings would be finally annihilated at the end of time. Those judged to be evil would not live on forever in a fiery hell, but go through a quick annihilation.

The good ones would go to the House of Song and live eternally there. Prior to this end of time, both the good and bad would be waiting for this final event. This sounds similar to what you have described.

If I recall correctly, the Zoroastrian religion is likely the religion of the three wise men of the Christmas event and their views predate Judaism.

Anyway, I'm no expert. I just wanted to pass on something I heard.

Frank; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by JOSHUA on December 9, 2009 at 7:44pm: Hi Frank,
Thank you for your reply. Iam a believer of UR and recently I have been trying to put all the pieces together.There are some areas of difficulty.Iam quite exhausted.
:(

(1)Consider that Christ had not come to the earth to do His work.
A gentile sinned greatly,never repented and died.What would have been the result as far as the afterlife is concerned?
Was there any way/possibility for him to be with God forever after he was punished for his sins?

(2)Now the same scenario,but this time with Christ having lived a sinless life, died for the sins of mankind and resurrected.
A gentile sinned greatly,neither repented nor believed in Christ and died.What would be the result?
How would his eonian punishment differ from that of the punishment of the gentile in the first case?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Frank Hubeny on December 10, 2009 at 8:07am: Hi Josh,

I am not a representative of those who promote UR. I only vaguely know what it is myself. A friend of mine just pointed me to this site. Hopefully someone will set both of us straight. I am writing this just to encourage others to step to the plate.

So, with that disclaimer in mind, it looks like the person in the case 1 and 2 that you describe would experience the same thing after death. Even if they believed, I suspect they would experience something similar.

I'm sure that doesn't help.

One thing that might help is to look in a different direction for your answer of what happens after death. Have you heard of Raymond Moody's book "Life After Life"? He is a psychologist who studied people who died and were then resuscitated and had things to say about their experience. He called this a "near-death" experience. However, from what I can tell these people really died and really resurrected. Many of them reported pleasant experiences, but not all. Those who reported positive experiences included non-believers, even atheists. I don't think the negative experiences included hell fire, but I have only read about a few accounts.

Anyway, after reading about these near-death experiences, I began to ask myself "who am I?" And questions like: "Am I a body that got a soul when I was born or am I a soul that got a body when I was born?"

So, I'll wait with you for someone more knowledgeable to respond.

Frank; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by JOSHUA on December 10, 2009 at 4:07pm: Frank Hubeny said:
Hopefully someone will set both of us straight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46tFZPnnlvE
These series of videos answered some of my questions.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Alveno Kondyles on December 10, 2009 at 4:43pm: Hello to all.

God places individuals in the lake of fire, to give them supernatural conviction, or judgment. This eternal fire (God fire) describes not literal fire, but is instead a metaphor for God’s intense focus. It is also used as a metaphor to describe the burning away of the old self. God is intense like fire. Eternal is a not a word that describes time, but is a word that is non translatable, which describes God’s nature. Those who are thrown into the lake of fire have already died, therefore before they are redeemed they must die again. They are not yet redeemed when they are judged. It would be pointless to judge them if they were already redeemed.

The scroll of life is just a document that checked to make sure that there was no mistake in assigning individuals to the lake of fire. Those individuals that are in the book of life were written there at the beginning. The book of life is representative of God’s chosen ones. Those chosen to receive life. Those that in the book of life die just once, and are part of the first resurrection. Those not in the book of life die twice, and are resurrected twice. Those who enter into the lake of fire will receive life in the final age, or eon.

The false prophet, and the antichrist are thrown into the lake of fire at the beginning of the 1,000 yr kingdom, Satan is locked up. Satan is released at the end of the 1,000 yr kingdom then is picked up and also thrown into the lake of fire, just a little ahead of the mankind.

All will be redeemed, that is why the Devil, the false prophet, and the Anti Christ are all thrown into the lake of fire. The lake is the place of redemption for most.

Zoroastrian religion is not the religion of the three wise men, but goes back to the Semiramis, and Nimrod , and then Tammuz. It is the pagan counterfeit of Eve, and then Mary bearing the seed (Jesus) that will save all mankind. The root of the word Zoroaster , or Zoroaster is Astarte the pagan equivalent of Eve, Mary etc. The worship of the Virgin, and child is the basis of the mystery Babylonian religion that still exists today.

Al; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Frank Hubeny on December 11, 2009 at 9:18am: Ah, so the lake of fire does not annihilate those thrown in it. It just purifies them and then they are redeemed as well. In that case, I guess it doesn't matter if one is on the scroll of life or not.

I suspect that is how I'll get there, since I'm usually not on any state dinner invitation list.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Alveno Kondyles on December 12, 2009 at 5:08pm: If your not born again, or haven’t been for many years. Then it might not be obvious why it would be a blessing, or advantageous to be in the scroll of life, book of life, part take of the tree of life, to be in Christ, and Christ in you. Which is pretty much all the same thing.

It is a wonderful thing for those who were not in the book of life, to go through the lake of fire to get purified so that they can be redeemed. But I would much prefer to go through God’s fire in this life, and be spared the intense pain of the lake of fire.

Knowing both sides of the born again, and non-born again experience. I much prefer the born again life. Yes there is tribulation, and trials, and judgments that go along with the born again life, but Christ bears much of the pain. He sustains me. He allowed me to grow in my understanding of him. This has given me much comfort , and joy.

When I first understood that God would save all, the Holy Spirit allowed me to experience it as joy, not jealousy, or anger. I am so glad that the Lord loves all. I’m so glad that the Lord is just. This joy can come to those who are in the book of life, if God allows it. Not all of his children receive the same gifts! We will each receive a white stone, with a different name for Christ. He is a slightly different experience for each of us.

I am not yet redeemed, but I will be at the beginning of the millennial kingdom. I will be so happy that I will be redeemed at least 1,000 yrs early, for the whole duration of the millennium kingdom. Think what a blessing that will be.

So is there no advantage to being born again prior to the white throne judgment?

Al; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Frank Hubeny on December 13, 2009 at 8:31pm: Thanks for the response, Al! It seems like you have come to terms with Revelation.

I've never read Revelation before, but I did check it out today (Rev 20-21). It does seem like this lake of fire (and sulphur) continues as punishment indefinitely for Satan. However, it doesn't say that the others thrown into it are ultimately redeemed. I can see how one could reasonably assume that anyone thrown into this lake would suffer eternally as well-- since they are thrown into the same lake.

Adlai Loudy, whom Joshua originally quotes, (http://www.gtft.org/Library/loudy/GodsEonianPurpose/GodsEonianPurpo...) seems to be saying that this is an annihilation although not a punishment:

It is the second death, therefore, it can be nothing more than a repetition of the first, and as the first death was simply a complete dissolution and return to the state of unconsciousness, so will be the second death. It is never said to be punishment for mankind in the Scriptures.

Basically, those not on the scroll of life are eliminated.

So, at the moment, my questioning is going along these lines. Why is Revelation a part of the Christian canon at all? Of what value is it? Was there a political motivation that I am not seeing now for its inclusion rather than some other early texts, such as the Gospel of Thomas--that is, were there specific early Christian sects that the author of Revelation was trying to demonize?

And finally, is it necessary to accept Revelation in order to be a Christian?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Larren Smoot on December 14, 2009 at 1:01am: May I add a different perspective on this topic? At first this may seem like I’m taking you down a different path. But just read on and maybe you will get a glimpse of what the lake of fire is all about.
Let’s first nail down a basic principle of understanding. Jesus told us to beware of the yeast of the Pharisees. What was he telling us to beware of? Think about this. He was telling us to beware of the traditions of man. These are false teachings, outright lies, dung, bad attitudes and hypocrisy. He wanted to warn us that these teachings and beliefs will one day work their way through the whole batch of dough. EVERYTHING we find in all modern day religions is infected by this junk. Just look at any religion in the world today. Including modern day Christianity. Many of these “ministries” are run by modern day Pharasees. They may look sweet and wonderful on the outside but many of them are ravenous wolves on the inside. Some are blind to what they are and others know exactly what they are doing. Only those who Christ has revealed the truth can see through these guys (and gals).
The main point is to understand what leaven is. Do you understand what the leaven is? Have you questioned what you where taught in Sunday school? Do you question what the preacher is telling everyone from the pulpit? If so, then you already have a grasp of some of the leaven being worked throughout the whole false message. If you understand, or are beginning to understand UR then you are beginning to have this leaven burned out of you. You may recall that understanding some of these truths have brought you some pain. Burning the flesh to get the leaven out is not always a fun experience. But it is necessary to kill the yeast and bake a nice loaf of bread. You have to go through the fire.
Once you see this process that we all have to go through then you will start to see the lake of fire in a whole new light. It’s a purifying fire. It’s to burn out the leaven and give you a loaf of bread you can eat. This bread is to be broken and then shared with others. This is a picture of Jesus and it’s a picture of you and me. If we are to be part of the body of Christ, the bread, then we can have no trace of leaven in us.
Now this is bread that we can chew on for a while.

As a side note, did you know that yeast (leaven) has been found to be in many, if not all cancers.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Alveno Kondyles on December 14, 2009 at 4:24pm: Frank.

Consider Larren’s response about the yeast. It represents sin. Consider what happened to it when the bread was baked. It is eliminated. Satan is not eliminated when he goes through the fire. Something in him will be eliminated. He will be transformed from the accuser, and liar to a redeemed creature. The same will happen to all the people.

The fire is not a real fire that has measurable heat. It is a metaphor.

Eternal is not a word that only describes time. It is a transliterated word. It is a word that means everything that is God. If you have any contact with God, then that contact is eternal. If you go to where God is, then your in eternality. God is forever, but he also created the beginning, he was before the beginning. His plans are eternal. Eternal describes everything about God, but our knowledge of him is so inadequate as to give the word no justice.

When Moses asked him “ Who should I say sent me?” God said to tell them that “I am” sent you! How should God describe himself to a puny, sinful, stupid human?

Al; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Frank Hubeny on December 14, 2009 at 6:02pm: Thanks for the responses, Al and Larren. The metaphor of the yeast is very nice and it is likely something good that comes from reading Revelation.

However, in re-reading Revelation 20-22 and in going over Mary Boyce's "Zoroastrians Their Religious Beliefs and Practices", I'm coming to the conclusion that Revelation is essentially a text written either to attract Zoroastrians or to merge parts of Christianity with Zoroastrianism. And the sections about the lake of fire is more Zoroastrian than Christian.

Zarathustra's apocalypse and what is presented in Revelation 20-21 match up too closely. I'm going to quote from Boyce's text, pages 27-28, using italics.

The concept of hell, a place of torment presided over by Angra Mainyu, seems to be Zoroaster's own, shaped by his deep sense of the need for justice....Zoroaster taught that the blessed must wait for this culmination till Frashegird and the 'future body', when the earth will give up the bones of the dead. This general resurrection will be followed by the Last Judgment, which will divide all the righteous from the wicked, both those who have lived until that time and those who have been judged already. Then Airyaman, Yazata of friendship and healing, together with Atar, Fire, will melt all the metal in the mountains, and this will flow in a flowing river over the earth. All mankind must pass through this river, and as it is said in a Pahlavi text, 'for him who is righteous it will seem like warm milk, and for him who is wicked, it will seem as if he is walking in the flesh through molten metal'....So at this last ordeal of all the wicked will suffer a second death, and will perish off the face of the earth. The Daevas and legions of darkness will already have been annihilated in a last great battle with the Yazatas, and the river of metal will flow down into hell, slaying Angra Mainyu and burning up the last vestige of wickedness in the universe.

Did you catch the idea of the "second death"? Did you notice that the general resurrection will be delayed? Doesn't that sound like the 1000 year reign, er, wait? Did you notice the river of metal? Did you notice the last battle with the angelic Yazatas?

What is the main reason not to include Revelation in a Christian canon? Well, Revelation is a Zoroastrian text. It is not a Christian text.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Larren Smoot on December 14, 2009 at 7:22pm: Zoroasterism = dung = yeast = leaven = traditions of men = fairy tales

I wish I could say this in a more loving manner but there's really no other way.

Run don't walk to the nearest exit! Really! Get away from teachings that try to bing the Word of God to the level of traditions of man.

I can assure you that the Book of Revelations was not written to attract people from this false religion. Though there may apear to be similarities the real meanings and truths about Revelations is as far away from that non-sence as you can get.

If you are serious about studing the Word of God and your not affraid of some hard reading then may I introduce you to the writings from Stephen Jones. His work is very deep but I think you can glean from anything he has written. He has several studies on Revelations and the history of the church. If you allow yourself to be honest with what you read you will see that Revelations is a book written in sybolic terms. You can't read it literally. It's an outline of history and how the religions of man grew to where they are today. Culminating in the world that is falling apart around us now. I believe in the near future you will see the religions of the world along with their buddies from Wall Street, Washington D.C and the International Bankers all fall and crumble as scripture tells us. When the world has nothing left to count on and nothing left to believe in then the true body of Christ will rise to fill that void. This is what Revelations is all about. Forget literal lakes of fire, torture and all that goes with it. The pictures we all grew up getting from Sunday School is 100% pure bull dung. Let them go. They are traditions taught by man.

http://gods-kingdom-ministries.org/List.cfm; ▶ Reply to This