1 Samuel and God rejecting Saul..insight needed!

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Frank Hubeny on December 31, 2009 at 11:08am

When reading this I've never understood what Saul did wrong that God should repent making him king, but I'm no expert. In fact, Saul looks better than God.

You might want to consider the possibility that God didn't really say this.

There is a book by Baruch Halpern, David's Secret Demons, which looks at the texts of Samuel and first Kings as political documents primarily authored during Solomon's reign to justify Solomon's right to be king. Saul may have been portrayed in the negative way he was to justify David's ascension as king. And then the intricate details about David's affair with Bathsheba, Solomon's mother, were recorded (and perhaps made-up) to prove that Solomon was David's son and had a right to succeed him, when what occurred may well have been a military coup with Solomon at the head.

I know that is not the explanation you are looking for.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Kelly Beane on December 31, 2009 at 11:54am

As tough as so much of the Bible is for me to understand, I just have to believe everything in it is there for a reason. And because I believe that God is in control, I have to even believe that the mistraslations were allowed by Him for reasons I cannot understand. So, I suppose I should be open to the idea that 1 samuel is a political document that God allowed to be placed in the Bible even though it's full of untruths...but then I start to lose confidence in everything that is written in the Bible as to whether it's true or not. I just can't go there. But I do appreciate you taking the time to respond and giving me something to think about.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Tom Flagstad on January 1, 2010 at 7:30am

Kelly, The sense I have with the above is that God has a preferred way to express something here as a symbol or a type of a greater fullfillment to come. I personally dont think He decredits Samuel's heart to have pity, but He does have His reasons for how things are to be. There seems to be patterns in scripture that reveal something greater to come. One can attempt to put ones hand to the whole thing and do it our way, or move with God and allow Him to do it His way. It is important to Him as to how things are to be manifested, and for His reasons. It is the same way with the building of the Tabernacle, it was to be done according to the pattern Moses had seen on the Mount. I do sense the same is to be seen here. Just some thoughts. Hope this opens up more in the spirit for you. Blessings Tom

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Elizabeth Warrington on January 1, 2010 at 10:49am

Hi Kelly

I think it is interesting that before this event (Samuel 15) happened God had already rejected Saul.

1Sa 13:5 And the Philistines gathered themselves together to fight with Israel, thirty thousand chariots, and six thousand horsemen, and people as the sand which [is] on the sea shore in multitude: and they came up, and pitched in Michmash, eastward from Bethaven.

1Sa 13:6 When the men of Israel saw that they were in a strait, (for the people were distressed,) then the people did hide themselves in caves, and in thickets, and in rocks, and in high places, and in pits.

1Sa 13:7 And [some of] the Hebrews went over Jordan to the land of Gad and Gilead. As for Saul, he [was] yet in Gilgal, and all the people followed him trembling.

1Sa 13:8 And he tarried seven days, according to the set time that Samuel [had appointed]: but Samuel came not to Gilgal; and the people were scattered from him.

1Sa 13:9 And Saul said, Bring hither a burnt offering to me, and peace offerings. And he offered the burnt offering.

1Sa 13:10 And it came to pass, that as soon as he had made an end of offering the burnt offering, behold, Samuel came; and Saul went out to meet him, that he might salute him.

1Sa 13:11 And Samuel said, What hast thou done? And Saul said, Because I saw that the people were scattered from me, and [that] thou camest not within the days appointed, and [that] the Philistines gathered themselves together at Michmash;

1Sa 13:12 Therefore said I, The Philistines will come down now upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the LORD: I forced myself therefore, and offered a burnt offering.

1Sa 13:13 And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever.

1Sa 13:14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him [to be] captain over his people, because thou hast not kept [that] which the LORD commanded thee.

Someone once wrote: "A sin offering had to precede a peace offering and Saul lost His kingdom for failing to do that....... something for Christians to consider"

Not sure any of this helps, but I think there is alot more to consider here than just what appears on the surface.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jacob Israel on January 1, 2010 at 1:10pm

Kelly,

Everyone God commanded Saul to kill and destroy represents everything in us, that is untrue. It is an allegorical telling of how Man must destroy everyone of God's enemies (lies/false beliefs etc) - Hope that helps. Peace to you, Jacob -- BTW Saul represents the RELIGIOUS MAN - this is what MANKIND wanted God to have RULE OVER THEM. The First King (ruler) we are given is RELIGION, but we inherit the TRUE king within.

Check out my blog if you get a chance, I have some writings on this stuff. Adios
http://jacobisrael71.wordpress.com

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Craig Nolin on January 1, 2010 at 4:25pm

Amen Jacob :D

The secret to the religious downfall, is laws were not meant to save anyone but destroy them. The religious man is built upon the foundation of law and will ultimately be destroyed.

The godly man, one after God's own heart, is built upon the foundation of God and likewise His natural attributes and his plans shall succeed.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Kelly Beane on January 2, 2010 at 5:56pm

Can you explain further the sin offering and the peace offering? Saul was obviously someone with very little mercy...he was ready to kill his son because he ate some honey after Saul demanded everyone not to eat anything. I kept thinking "wow, Saul is really a jerk!" Then he says he couldn't kill this bad king because the people wanted to be merciful to him...I know there is so much more going on in this story, and I wish I really understood it. Mostly because God looks mean and demanding...and of course we know that's not true.

Elizabeth Warrington said:

Hi Kelly

I think it is interesting that before this event (Samuel 15) happened God had already rejected Saul.

1Sa 13:5 And the Philistines gathered themselves together to fight with Israel, thirty thousand chariots, and six thousand horsemen, and people as the sand which [is] on the sea shore in multitude: and they came up, and pitched in Michmash, eastward from Bethaven.

1Sa 13:6 When the men of Israel saw that they were in a strait, (for the people were distressed,) then the people did hide themselves in caves, and in thickets, and in rocks, and in high places, and in pits.

1Sa 13:7 And [some of] the Hebrews went over Jordan to the land of Gad and Gilead. As for Saul, he [was] yet in Gilgal, and all the people followed him trembling.

1Sa 13:8 And he tarried seven days, according to the set time that Samuel [had appointed]: but Samuel came not to Gilgal; and the people were scattered from him.

1Sa 13:9 And Saul said, Bring hither a burnt offering to me, and peace offerings. And he offered the burnt offering.

1Sa 13:10 And it came to pass, that as soon as he had made an end of offering the burnt offering, behold, Samuel came; and Saul went out to meet him, that he might salute him.

1Sa 13:11 And Samuel said, What hast thou done? And Saul said, Because I saw that the people were scattered from me, and [that] thou camest not within the days appointed, and [that] the Philistines gathered themselves together at Michmash;

1Sa 13:12 Therefore said I, The Philistines will come down now upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the LORD: I forced myself therefore, and offered a burnt offering.

1Sa 13:13 And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever.

1Sa 13:14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him [to be] captain over his people, because thou hast not kept [that] which the LORD commanded thee.

Someone once wrote: "A sin offering had to precede a peace offering and Saul lost His kingdom for failing to do that....... something for Christians to consider"

Not sure any of this helps, but I think there is alot more to consider here than just what appears on the surface.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Kelly Beane on January 2, 2010 at 6:44pm

Ok, I read your blog...and now my brain hurts. ;) It's a lot to absorb, but I am getting it bit by bit. One thing I'd love you to expound on, and that is how eating from the tree of knowledge made us ignorant. When I was seeing the garden story from a less 'literal' viewpoint, I kept asking God why he put the tree there, available for us to eat, telling us not to eat it, but knowing we would eat it all along. Why not just 'block off' the tree...wouldn't that have been a lot easier for all of us? And I really felt like God told me he really wanted us have 'knowledge of good and evil', because then we could grow up. Then why not just tell us to eat it, I asked. And I really felt like God said "because I couldn't ask you to do something that was going to cause you so much pain, even though I knew I could fix it and have something even better at the end". Because it really seems to me that knowledge of good and evil is not a bad thing...it's only bad when evil is chosen instead of good. SO...I'm still a little perplexed how man became ignorant of our connection with God by eating of a tree that gives knowledge of good and evil.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Kelly Beane on January 2, 2010 at 6:49pm

Thanks Craig. I am really enjoying everyone's insights. I am still curious about God 'repenting'...it's just really bugging me. How does God change His mind? We know He can't do that. So why does it say He does?

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jacob Israel on January 3, 2010 at 6:32am

Kelly,

I am with you on that, I also think Craig has talked about how that Tree of Knowledge has always been part of the plan. Romans 8 talks about how the CREATURE (mankind) was made subject to vanity, (not willingly) so it wasn't our choice, but it also says we were subject to vanity (ignorance) so we could also be subjected in hope. The parable of the Blind man - Jesus said, "He was born blind so when he would see God could be glorified" - Perhaps this is why we are all ignorant to start so when we understand the TRUTH is revealed... But I really look at it as WE ARE CHILDREN and we, like regular kids have to learn by the mistakes we make, and eventually it helps us to love be compassionate etc. etc... Also About the whole God repenting that he made man, and then destroying him.... I did the same with my life, I repented of the man "I" made (believed myself to be) than "I" set out to destroy that first state I was in... There ONLY IS GOD and GOD IS ONE, we are his creation either DEAD IN ADAM or ALIVE IN CHRIST - But all ONE. --- Kelly, to answer your question, I have no clue LOL... What I have written above are ideas, never trust a man, go to God and the answers wil be revealed. These may be the answers they may not be, like all my articles I usually give the disclaimer, don't take my word for it, you got the WORD (TRUTH) within you already. I JUST LOVE WRITING! Peace J

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Alveno Kondyles on January 3, 2010 at 9:27am

Hello Kelly, and to all.

Man didn’t become ignorant of God after eating of the tree of knowledge of “good and evil“. Adam only had a superficial knowledge of God in the first place. Adam and Eve were naïve, with weak flesh. This flesh caused them to get hungry, thirsty, fearful etc, like animals, but they had higher minds. Sometimes these things can be helpful in order to survive, and in other times it may cause us to hurt others. Without the knowledge of good and evil man can not know, that it is wrong to hurt someone, he doesn’t know what doing good is, or when he’s being fooled by a serpent in the garden, or know that God is good. But the tree is just the first step. Even with the tree man can not know God without the intervention of God’s spirit. It is all a process, and that process is not over. For most of mankind there is at least one more age (eon), before the redemption of all.

It was absolutely necessary for man to eat of the tree. By making man sin, God prevents all from making any claims of self righteousness. God wanted man to try to make it on his own and then to fail. So that man, would have no choice but to receive God’s way (Jesus). God also wants man to appreciate God for what he will do for him. God wants man to love him, as he loves man. Man will not be able to that, without the perspective of good and evil. With this perspective man with be able, with supernatural insight, to know God for who he is. Which good! And to know himself, which is the other. It’s interesting, that a man called Jesus good, and then Jesus asked him why he called him good? The man didn’t really know why. The answer is, that only God is good.! The man could not recognize that Jesus was God in the flesh.

Yes, God did put the tree in the garden, yes he allowed the serpent to tempt man. Yes God gave Adam only one rule, and God wanted man to break it.

Which brings me to the word repent. That definition for repent, (one changes his mind) is not a good translation, when it comes to God. God never changes, his plan never changes. He knew all things from the beginning. Man thru his ignorance thinks that God changes his mind, but in reality God is setting in motion some part of his pre planned plan. Man’s perspective comes from ignorance. For man, he can not repent. He can be repented by God. God is the one who changes mans mind, or actions.

Al Kondyles

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Elizabeth Warrington on January 9, 2010 at 11:15pm

Hi Kelly

Sorry for the delay in responding. I haven't been to the site in a while, so I didn't see your response.

In Chapter 10 Samuel tells Saul that he is going to instruct him in the sacrifices of burnt offerings and peace offerings so that he would know what and what not to do. Then in Chapter-13 it only said that "burnt offerings" were made and that caused Samuel to rebuke Saul.

Saul should have had waited to gain the knowledge from Samuel but instead he did a "self" thing without the knowledge of how to worship "in truth" that is always necessary and also he was disobedient to the high priest.......... then if that was not enough later he wants to offer sheep that belonged to the people of Amalack that they used to offer up to their Gods that he was instructed to destroy.

Some thoughts on how this applies to us today is we need to examine ourselves on a regular basis whether we have repentance and a covering for sin (the blood of Christ) before approaching God in prayer........ how else can we approach a Holy God with an unclean sinful body..... we need His Blood for a sin and/or trespass offering and we need the peace offering that Jesus has fulfilled.

Elaine Cook has a beautiful study regarding the offerings, if you would like to read further study on them.

http://www.kingdomgospel.net/publications/offered_for_us.html

Peace

Kelly Beane said:

Can you explain further the sin offering and the peace offering? Saul was obviously someone with very little mercy...he was ready to kill his son because he ate some honey after Saul demanded everyone not to eat anything. I kept thinking "wow, Saul is really a jerk!" Then he says he couldn't kill this bad king because the people wanted to be merciful to him...I know there is so much more going on in this story, and I wish I really understood it. Mostly because God looks mean and demanding...and of course we know that's not true.

Elizabeth Warrington said:

Hi Kelly

I think it is interesting that before this event (Samuel 15) happened God had already rejected Saul.

1Sa 13:5 And the Philistines gathered themselves together to fight with Israel, thirty thousand chariots, and six thousand horsemen, and people as the sand which [is] on the sea shore in multitude: and they came up, and pitched in Michmash, eastward from Bethaven.

1Sa 13:6 When the men of Israel saw that they were in a strait, (for the people were distressed,) then the people did hide themselves in caves, and in thickets, and in rocks, and in high places, and in pits.

1Sa 13:7 And [some of] the Hebrews went over Jordan to the land of Gad and Gilead. As for Saul, he [was] yet in Gilgal, and all the people followed him trembling.

1Sa 13:8 And he tarried seven days, according to the set time that Samuel [had appointed]: but Samuel came not to Gilgal; and the people were scattered from him.

1Sa 13:9 And Saul said, Bring hither a burnt offering to me, and peace offerings. And he offered the burnt offering.

1Sa 13:10 And it came to pass, that as soon as he had made an end of offering the burnt offering, behold, Samuel came; and Saul went out to meet him, that he might salute him.

1Sa 13:11 And Samuel said, What hast thou done? And Saul said, Because I saw that the people were scattered from me, and [that] thou camest not within the days appointed, and [that] the Philistines gathered themselves together at Michmash;

1Sa 13:12 Therefore said I, The Philistines will come down now upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the LORD: I forced myself therefore, and offered a burnt offering.

1Sa 13:13 And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever.

1Sa 13:14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him [to be] captain over his people, because thou hast not kept [that] which the LORD commanded thee.

Someone once wrote: "A sin offering had to precede a peace offering and Saul lost His kingdom for failing to do that....... something for Christians to consider"

Not sure any of this helps, but I think there is alot more to consider here than just what appears on the surface.

▶ Reply to This

▶ Reply to This

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• 3
• 4
• Next ›
• Page